Sean Goldman Interview with Psychologist
The boy Sean Goldman, of nine years, whose
custody is disputed by the biological father, the American David
Goldman, and the father Brazilian, João Paulo Lins e Silva, was
heard this Monday (15 / 6) in the Division of Psychiatry, St. Mercy
Hospital of Rio de Janeiro. The responsible for interviewing the boy
at the request of the Brazilian family, was the teacher Terezinha
Carneiro Feres, a specialist in family therapy.
The testimony of Sean was transcribed by the notary 13 Letter of
Notes surrendered in court and to be part of the file. The interview
was monitored for evidence of his impartiality by desembargador Siro
Darlan, the Court of Justice of Rio, the General Directorate of
Judicial Analyst for the Management of People of TJ-RJ, Mônica
Corrêa Meyer, the representative of the Commission on Human Rights
of the OAB -RJ, Margarida Prado de Mendonca, the chairman of the
State Council of the Rights of the Child and Adolescent, Carlos
Nicodemus, the representative of the National Commission for
Children and Youth, Tânia Pereira da Silva and the Vice-President of
the OAB-RJ, Lauro Schuch, and members of the Brazilian family.
In testimony, Sean says he wants to stay in Brazil, where the
specialist asks if he wants to talk about "the story to stay in
Brazil or go to the United States." The boy says he wants to respect
that they feel violated by his father David Goldman and pretend that
Remember, the boy lives in Brazil with his Brazilian family for more
than four years, same time it is from the father. It is easy to see
that the evidence reflects that situation, and shows the affection
the family and the aversion to Brazilian biological father in the
environment where Sean lived in the last years of his life.
In an interview to the program Good morning, America, the network
ABC, David Goldman said that Sean is being trained to forget the
father. According to David, the information came from analysis by
the Brazilian Justice.
Sean was born in the United States and lived there until 2004 when,
for four years, was brought to Brazil by his mother, Bruna Bianchi.
In Brazil, Bruna obtained the custody of Sean, asked for a divorce
and married in again as the lawyer João Paulo Lins e Silva. Last
year, she died of complications at birth of second daughter. Lins e
Silva, then, became the guardian of Sean and stop the courts,
together with the family of Bruna, a dispute for custody of the boy.
The case began in court of Rio State, then went to Federal
Read the testimony of Sean
Interview with SRG - 15.06.2009
Location: Santa Casa da Misericórdia - Psychiatric Clinic Jorge
Alberto - Rio de Janeiro. Teacher: Terezinha Carneiro
Terezinha Carneiro - So Sean, we are seeing that we are being
filmed, is not it? Because it will be important that we say here. I
work there at the PUC because families and children in families and
there also writes for the sessions after we better understand what
happened, do not lose anything of the session. Why they are
Sean Goldman-But they listen?
TC - They listen. Ah ... they listen here, this is a microphone and
then the side of it they are watching us, we do not tamo (sic) see
them and this microphone is the sound mind. Here at the university
where I'm taking the family with the student I sometimes take the
families back of the mirror to see who 's looking, explain why we'
re recording because after I do it, everybody turns off the
microphone, the camera, already knowing what it is, okay? So, my
name is Terezinha, I am a specialist in caring for families.
Families with children, families with babies, families with
adolescents, adults with family out of home, families in general I
try it has some problems, so they seek. My profession is
psychologist, a family therapist. So, for people seeking
psychologist? So because they (sic) with some problem that sometimes
they alone can not solve. Okay? So, in our meeting, that our
meeting, I wanted you I could speak naturally, with all the freedom
that everything is going for his head. The point here is we know how
you think, what you feel, what you want. I know you 're living a
time of trouble, a difficult moment in their family and I wanted you
begin Sean, I am talking about your family. What is your family, how
it is formed, how it is constituted, his family?
SG - Hmm, did not understand the question.
CT - No? Thus, sometimes I ask people to draw the family.
SG - Oh, okay!
TC - You want to draw your family or tell me?
SG - nod positively)
TC - So okay, you will draw me to his family and then we'll talk
about its design. You prefer with black pencil or colored pencil?
SG - Color.
TC - Color. So ready, draw your family to me. All members of his
family, including you.
SG - No color of skin?
TC - color of skin? What do you think is the skin color?
SG - The more similar is the red
TC - Okay. Oh, sorry
SG - No. I do the face so white with black outline.
TC - You can do it the way you want, but then you tell me about them
(Pause for 58 seconds)
SG - I'm not the best
CT - Designers? But is not important, the design we re using Sean,
just as a way for us to talk of people to communicate. You need not
be a designer, huh? Just talk to us in a little early on his family.
(Pause for 15 seconds)
SG - Hmm, I did something wrong here
TC - Oh, is not important. Then you explain what you did wrong
SRG - Oh, you can do as a mouth
TC - Okay.
(Pause for 40 seconds)
TC - Uhum
(Pause for 90 seconds)
SG - Can you pretend as if it were a mouth?
TC - Okay, okay, then you me explain. Just draw us a little talk
about the design. Okay?
SG - Uhum.
TC-We have several things you talk. Then after the design we will
talk. Will put hair in everyone?
(Pause for 40 seconds)
SG - Hmm, I forgot
CT - Who are these people? Talk to me
SG - I have not finished
TC - Ah, then ends. (Pause for 15 seconds) You must get all members
of your family
SRG - So I need another ... (shows the sheet of paper)
TC - Is it? No, I think will fit, is that part of it. Well, let's
try to get everybody on the same sheet. (Pause for 19 seconds) All
missing someone? SG: All the other two missing grandparents
TC - Okay. So come on
SG - And my sister
TC - So here we go
SRG - I will bring my sister here
TC - Okay
SG - It is a baby
TC-A baby? How many months is she?
SG - Nine
TC - How is it called?
SG - Chiara
(Pause for 12 seconds)
TC - Who 's still missing?
SG - My two grandparents, other
TC: So let's put the other grandparents.
(Pause for 49 seconds)
SG: That was very bad here
TC: EU, why?
SG: Where is the hand?
TC: Ah, but okay. You need not be a designer, I just want you to
tell me of your family.
(Pause for 20 seconds)
SG - entered someone else
TC: They have come, right? But we already know they are there
watching the same people. Tamo not (sic) not calling for it, right?
(Pause for 23 seconds)
TC - Um, okay now the family complete?
TC - So let me identify the characters of the family? Who are the
SG - I lack an uncle, but okay
TC - Okay, then let. I know that uncle has, you can talk but it will
not fit on paper. Let's talk about those people, identify each
person for me. Who are they?
SG - the VO from the mother
TC - How is it?
SG - Raimundo
TC - Raimundo. Raimundo then arises. Raimundo is the VO by the
mother. This is who?
SG - Silvana
SG: A grandma from the mother
TC - Okay, then put the name of Silvana
SG - This is my father
CT - This is your father. So writes the father. Dad, how is he
TC - John Paul, OK.
SG - I can not write here Chiara ... then ...
TC - You can make initial
SG - So I put a C
TC - A C, Chiara. Your sister for nine months?
SG - Uhum
CT - Here. Um, is this you?
SG - This is ...
TC - That you said that the grandparents are others, right?
SG - Ahani
TC - Are?
SG - The grandparents ...
TC - Grandmothers paternal, right?
SG - Ana Lucia
TC - Ana Lucia. So places. Ana Lucia, and the grandfather?
SG - Paul
CT - Paul? Paulo. Here, how is it here? Your father 's with your
hand behind your shoulder. Is that it? So?
SG - Yeah, well.
TC - So?
SG - Yeah
CT - Friends? Cool. What name would you give to this design?
SG - My family
TC - From family. It is my family, okay. Then put the title.
Whenever I ask to do a drawing, I ask you make a name for the
drawing, put a title in the drawing.
(Pause for 90 seconds)
SG - Can you hear
TC - Yes. They are talking high right? We pay attention not there.
Let's pay attention here right? Um, also put an accent. Very good!
Pause for 10 seconds)
SG - That was bad
TC-No, it was legal. It was cool, cool. So? I wanted you to speak a
little for me, right Sean, how is it your living with this family,
Iittle Iife, your day to day, not only with the family, that you do,
where you go, the college .
SG - Monday is basketball
TC - Basketball. You like to play basketball?
SRG - Taste
CT - only the second basketball?
SRG - Second and fourth
TC - Hum
SG - Basketball second and fourth. I will go pro, I agree, sometimes
I do the duty
TC - What college you study?
SG - College Park
TC - College Park. Beautiful there right?
SG - Ahani. I agree, sometimes my duty, EEA, lunch and going to
school. Then I study at school
TC - Have many friends?
SG - I
TC - What friend do you like most at school?
SG - Ih, has many
TC - both! Wow! Many you like
SRG - It
CT - In general what you do with your friends? In addition to find
in college, you go out with friends, make program somewhere?
SRG - Sometimes
TC - Yeah? What kind of thing you do?
SG - Sometimes I ... we, the people who solve
CT - When you solve. And people with this family? What you usually
do, and that living at home? You leave with these grandparents?
SG - I go out
TC - Get? What do you do?
SG - We solve the time too.
TC - Solves the time too. And with your sister. How is it? Helps you
look, what do you do with your sister?
SG - Yeah. I get it
TC - You get it and what do you do? Play with it?
SG - I play
TC - What do you play with it?
SG - Oh, the things she likes
TC - Yeah? In general it like that?
SG - Oh, I do some tricks in it that I get out, just as I was
running behind her nanny and run from me, there she is laughing
TC - Ahani that legal
SG - That's a joke that she likes
TC - What she likes. Cool, cool. So Sean, this is your family, you
called my family that lives here in Brazil, right? But I know you
were born there in the United States, New Jersey. You remember it?
From when you lived there?
SG - I remember
TC - Remember? Do you remember?
SG - That was ... cold.
CT - It was cold?
SG - Yeah
TC - the more you remember, and it was cold?
SG - (Silence - Put your hand on head)
TC - Well, you may therefore want to say to you, right Sean, that
this, in that our meeting here today, it is important that you can
talk about everything that goes through your head, without being
worried, not be thinking, that, huh, I know you 're living it, this
difficult time, you know we are here you talk about this situation,
if you are in Brazil, if you go to the United States and I wanted to
tell you so that This decision is for adult, you have the right to
give their opinion and it is very important that we listen to you,
what you feel, what you want, but it is also important, Sean, you
know that is not you who will decide this, okay? That I speak
whenever I families purchasing it. This decision is of adult people,
but the adults to decide it is important that they can take into
account what you want, what you think.
SG - What I want to stay here in Brazil!
TC - You want to stay in Brazil?
SG - I want to be in Brazil!
TC - You stay in Brazil. And because you want to stay in Brazil?
Tell me. I can even understand when you told me that this is his
family, but I wanted you I speak a little more because you want to
stay in Brazil
SG - I'm here because I like my family ...
TC - Hum ..
SG - the family that is my father, my sister ...
TC - Uhum ...
SG - my grandparents, I want to be here!
TC - How do you imagine if you were over there, how would the United
SG - I do not like. Nor imagine
TC - Not or imagine?
SRG - No wonder
TC - No idea. No idea
SG-must be very bad. I will not like!
TC - You will not like? Why do you think will not like? I explained
a little bit is important that we know, what goes through your mind
that on this subject
SG - Because here I have my family, I will not like because I stay
away from my family and I'm familiar ... I may never see them if I
TC - Hmm, you have that fear of never seeing them?
SG - What I go, I want to stay here
TC-Uhum. You can not remember little of it? The time when you, you
lived there until the four years, was not it? Can not remember
SG - (in the negative gesture of the head)
CT - E of David? What do you remember David?
SG - That ... he has changed very
TC - much has changed?
SG - Mudou. He is doing this now, more or less so, as if sustained
TC - Hmm. You think he is to suffer? How is it that?
SG - He 's now pretending that he suffered very tá, tá pretending he
gives you realize
CT - Do you think is pretending you do not really believe so?
SG - I have no confidence in him. He says that will be ... ... come
visit me and ruined my end of the week, I had a trip scheduled pro
Beach Park and he ruined my end of the week talking about that would
come visit me here, so I went there and I was with the waiting,
there's the lawyer with Sergio and I was expecting more, we was
waiting a long time, long, long time and he just did not appear
TC - I appeared?
SG - I came
CT - After you have checked with you?
SG - Once you have marked. And that was the third time
TC - How boring huh? The third time he comes and does not mark. That
is difficult to trust, right?
SG - Yeah
CT - It is difficult to trust. But, you know, you see Sean, he is
his biological father, you know, right, he has some rights, right of
your visit, now that he make visitation like that without giving you
the assurance that when he comes, he says and he is not coming.
SG - No, he does not turn on, no prompts
TC - Yeah, what makes you very angry and I understand that you get
upset. I understand. This makes up your contact with him, right?
Would you like to have some contact, I understand that you do not
want to go live in the United States, that I understand. But you
would thus have some contact with him?
SG - No
TC - How your biological father?
SG - No
TC - No no contact?
SG - None
TC - You prefer to have no contact?
SG - Prefer
TC - You know that he is entitled to this contact?
SG - I know, but I do not like
TC - No, I'm understanding that you do not like, I just wanted to,
right, that I was not saying that you need not be worried that your
word is worth it too, your word, but you need not be concerned that
the final decision is that you will take. Would you like to make
this decision final? You have a responsibility to make this decision
SG - The only thing I want is to stay here in Brazil
TC - You want, then ready
SG - I!
TC - What adults know. One who will make that decision knows that
SG - That all the judges, that all people know
TC - That all people, judges, anyone who will work in that case,
know that your desire is to stay in Brazil
SG - Sure.
CT - This is important so you can say, with this freedom, right?
You, as we combined the beginning, I wanted you to speak me what
goes through your head, what you feel, with full freedom and that is
what you feel. Uhum
SG - If I am around I will start to break everything, I will not
TC - You break it?
SG - I'm gonna be crazy.
TC - No, not gonna be crazy. You think you'll be crazy?
SG - I want to stay here in Brazil
TC - I understand Sean, I understand. Let's see, let's twist for
people, adults who will make that decision, right, to understand
what is going on inside you. I understand, as a family psychologist,
I understand that if you draw me that these people are your family
is more than reasonable that you want to keep these people are the
people with whom you have their links, it is your father, are his
grandparents and his sister, right? Here, as you said, that 's your
family. I understand, you see, we need to see from now on, if
people, like I told you, is not you who will decide, but your
opinion is very important, let's see if the adults, right Sean, you
have to take that decision, how they will deal, huh, well that is
until one, a drawing to show you, right, we can show to people who
are purchasing there seeing the other side as you drew your family,
right ? I wish you told me a little more than, well, how is it you
who said: I want to stay in Brazil, because here I have my family,
my friends, my life, I wanted you to speak a bit more of that
family, friends and those of life. Us because it is already clear,
but may need to be a bit more clear to other people, even people who
will influence this decision.
SG - Here, my grandfather ...
TC - Your grandfather. Let's see, I am old with glasses and only see
SG - Raimundo. He is great, he does everything for me to be okay
TC - which have a legal grandfather well, huh?
SG - My grandmother also
TC - Silvana
SG - Yeah. All my family, I do everything to stay as I want
TC - What legal. What is this all, when you talk like this: I do
everything to be fine. That you can remember, especially when you
're speaking of this, the Raimundo Grandpa and grandma Silvana, for
SG - As I'm a headache, they ask at the pharmacy the medicine
TC - Uhum
SG - When I'm sleepy, they ask for people to get my bed I sleep
TC - Uhum
SG - Yeah
TC - That is, always providing its welfare. Caring for you. And
here, this nucleozinho here? Dad, you and Chiara, how is this
SG - Very good
TC - Very good. Tell me a little. What you do
SG - We go to the cinema, we go to the beach, we travel together, we
make a lot of things
TC - Uhum. What do you most like to do when you're with your father
SG - Exit
CT - What is it? Exit?
SG - We ride
TC - Walk. What ride you like?
SG - We walk in the sidewalk, we will no ... shopping.
TC-Oh that cool. Generally you only go three or more go with
SG - Will the nanny
CT - The babysitter vai. To take care of that Chiara is still
Frenchieee and is still in diapers. And this hand here, and the
shoulder, huh? How is it that? To me
SG - is that every time we walk embraced, I and my father, even in
the mall, everywhere
CT-What legal, that legal. And here, the other grandparents, or
Luiza Ana Lucia? Lucia
SG - Lucia
TC - Ana Lucia and Paul. How is it with these grandparents? What do
you do about everything, how is it with them?
SG - My grandfather Paul, he has a ranch of horses and people will
ride a horse, will do a lot of things. Very cool!
TC-Que legal. You will therefore always on the farm, how many times?
SG - If not, when I do I will
TC - Uhum. When you want, just say that you want to go farm, is to
SG - Yeah, and on weekends
TC - With weekend. That's where the farm? Far?
SG - I do not know where this right is
CT - how long is thus more or less it takes?
SG - An hour and a half
TC - One hour and a half? Close
SG - An hour and a half or two hours or one hour
TC - Is too close right?
SG - Yeah
CT - It is very close. And I talk a bit more for me so of college.
You like the Park School? I think the school is a school legal. Now,
do you like?
SG - Uhum. I love the School Park
TC - like the Park School. You always looked before you looked there
or somewhere else?
SG - I studied in American schools before, but the American School
... I do not enjoy the American School
TC - Yeah, how long have you been in American schools?
SG - I think one years
TC - A year? And what you do not like it? You not enjoyed?
SG - There I learned to speak Portuguese, English was only
TC - I spoke English. So you want to learn to speak Portuguese in
school? Because you spoke Portuguese at home, right?
SG - Yeah
TC - You thought it important to speak English when you were in the
United States speak English when you were in Europe, the countries
that speak English ...
SG - No. ..
TC - You did not think it so important. You can study it
SG-Yes, I already know the basics.
TC - You know the basics. You can understand everything in English?
SG - I do not.
TC - Not a lot.
SG - Yeah.
TC - And you said that the college had many friends, but it has a
special friend? I know that we have.
SG - No.
CT - Do you have a friend come more so?
SG - No.
TC - Most arrivals are many friends, more or less?
SG - Ahn, all.
TC-All. When you make a party, birthday party you do?
SG - Ahani
TC - So you invite all your friends? Also all?
SG - Uhum.
CT - In your class has more boys or more girls?
SG - More boys.
TC - More boys. And you get along with both boys and girls with or
if it better with some than with others?
SG - It's the same thing.
TC - Same thing. The games ...
SG - are the same.
TC - are the same. With boys and girls. Sean then, has anything else
you would like to talk about his family, about your body, about this
story is in Brazil, the United States will continue on anything else
you want to talk?
SG - I do not want. What I want is respect.
TC - Respect? Do you feel violated?
SG - Tava this. When it comes to a visit, have someone present.
TC - Today is that?
SG - Until today.
TC - The first was with the psychologist?
TC - Where was it? In what location?
SG - Where is the ... in the condominium.
CT - In the condominium where you live?
SG - Ahani.
TC - Yeah.
SG - And when I had the bag, I decided: I want to go.
CT - In this first visit?
SG - On the first visit. Then he said, then we are. I said: not now,
enough for today. He: No! Today is not enough! Him ..
TC - I violated, do you think?
SG - Yeah.
TC - this failure.
SG - Yeah. He violated me that I would travel, he made a ... a ...
it combines a thing and will not.
TC: Very annoying this, right Sean? Very annoying. And you said that
pro David, you wanted to be more respected for it?
SRG: Not yet.
TC: No? And you would say that for him?
SRG: I would like.
TC: So it would be important ...
SRG: I would like ... and he saw that video!
TC: This video from now?
TC: Oh, yeah ... you decide later.
SRG: It is ...
TC: ... to people. I think you can see in this video because we are
doing, with the main objective, Sean, you speak your opinion freely.
SRG: My view is I want to stay here in Brazil.
TC: Yeah, you've spoken, I s recorded in the video. And you said,
right? So you would like David to watch this video.
SRG: And I repeat once more: I want to stay in Brazil!
TC: Do you want to stay in Brazil. I understand that perfectly.
SRG: But people have in a while ...
TC: ... not yet ...
SRG: ... did not see it ...
TC: ... not yet understood. So back to this history of failure,
right Sean, when we feel violated or when s upset with her father,
someone with David, with a friend, with her sister, her sister still
does not speak for, right?
SG - Yeah.
TC-But it is very important that we can talk about what the people s
mind, then I think you can talk about important pro David you feel
so right? Not only pro David, but to your friend, your friend if you
disrespect you can tell him that they felt violated, is not it?
Because when we speak what we feel all right, is very relieved ...
SG - ... takes a weight off their coasts.
TC - Yeah, get a weight of the back, and I imagine that you are
taking a weight from his back saying what you think here, right?
Now, let's see how things, I'm going to twist that his desire to
stay in Australia ...
SG-met ... ...
TC - ... is done, right? Because I'm considering ...
SG - ... I hope ...
TC - ... you want to stay in Brazil too. But as I told you, the
decision is yours. This is an adult thing to decide and we will see
if the adults, right, let's see ...
SG - I will listen ... ...
TC - ... you will hear, will see what is best for you, right? You
told me and all right in the video that recorded history, history of
your family, its history in Brazil, right, the links you have here,
the family, friends, college, right? All this is very important in
people's lives. Okay Sean, has still something more you want to
SG - No
TC - We can then conclude our meeting today?
SG - Yeah
TC - Okay, so I wish good luck, see?
SG - Thanks
CT - It was very nice and know you could have this meeting.